Anneliese Finn, author of The Code, is on mic to talk to Rick about how to succeed in the world of sales as a woman. With 20 plus years of experience in the medical sales world, Anneliese has collected a treasure trove of lessons from her career that have led to bigger success. Through this podcast and her guidebook, you’ll learn the basics of building social awareness and self awareness to help you navigate the many pitfalls that come up with a career in sales. For the lowdown on business acumen you don’t learn in school, check out this podcast on all the ways to level up your success as a sales person.
To listen in and subscribe to more episodes, visit our website: fbmc.com/podcast.
More About Our Guest:
Executive Endovascular Consultant at Terumo Aortic and Author of “The Code”
Personal Background: Anneliese Kagan Finn is a 43-year-old mother of two children, ages 13 and 7. She was born into a medical family: Her father is an Orthopedic Surgeon and her mother (deceased) received her EdD in Nursing and Educational Psychology. Her mother later published a book on renal disease, which has been translated into over 20 languages.
Anneliese holds a Bachelor of Science in Business from Florida State University. In her free time—aside from spending time with her two children—Anneliese enjoys outdoor activities, such as running, snow skiing, wake boarding, and horseback riding. She loves to travel and enjoys exploring new places and meeting people.
Work Background: Anneliese Kagan Finn has been in medical sales for more than 20 years. After starting her career with Ethicon-Endo Surgery (a division of Johnson & Johnson), Anneliese worked for Guidant Corporation as a pacemaker representative. She then moved into Peripheral Vascular Surgery with FoxHollow Technologies and Medtronic. For the past 10 years, she has been an Endovascular Consultant for aortic stent grafts and is currently employed by Terumo Aortic. Anneliese has earned numerous top sales awards, including President’s Clubs, Rookie of the Year, Sales Excellence trips, and more. She has worked with top surgeons from all over the country and has covered many areas of medicine, from General and Vascular Surgery to Electrophysiology and Thoracic Surgery.
Rick Farris 0:01
Hey, thank you for listening in to Risky Benefits. A podcast that informs you on all things benefits. We’ve got to saying around here. Benefits isn’t your main business. It’s ours.
Hey, everyone, thank you for listening to Risky Benefits and welcome to this week’s episode. Our guest this week is Anneliese Finn, author of the code, Anneliese and I will be talking today about her book and how to navigate your seat at the table. But before we get started, here’s an overview of today’s discussion. First, we’re going to go over what led to the book. And Anneliese will give us a synopsis of the book, talk about her journey as a female in a male dominated industry. We’ll talk about success habits, and lastly, tips for emerging leaders. So that’s what we’re getting into today. And without further ado, hello, Anneliese. And thanks for coming on. Why don’t we get started with you introducing yourself and giving some feedback, some background on what you do.
Anneliese Finn 1:00
Hi, thanks for having me. I appreciate the great introduction. My name is Anneliese Finn, and I live here and Tallahassee, Florida. I’ve been a medical device rep for almost 23 years now in various medical fields, such as pacemakers and defibrillators, vascular surgery, cardiac surgery, and open surgery as well. So I have a lot of experience in the medical field. And after about 10-15 years, I started thinking to myself that I would love to share some of my knowledge with other female reps out there, as well as just females in general, and give them some of the tips and tricks that I learned during the time of my tenure so far. And maybe also save them a couple pitfalls that I fell into that they might be able to navigate through a little bit easier than I did. So my book, the code, and it’s called the Code Cracking the Code for females and a male dominated medical world of sales is true. And it’s all based on true stories. And it is more of a guidebook than a novel. So you should be able to use it as something that you would flip through once a week, once every couple of days. And to remind yourself of the things you should be doing daily for your checklist to stay dominant in this field.
Rick Farris 2:17
That’s awesome. Well, Anneliese, it’s great having you on and it’s nice to meet you. You know, I guess one of the first things I would get into as I want to get to what led you to want to publish the code, and maybe just to kind of work into that. Let’s talk just a little bit about your past. So did you go to school in Tallahassee? Or or is that where you went to university? What how did that work out?
Anneliese Finn 2:40
Yeah, I actually did attend Florida State University, I came in as a music major, majoring and voice and also a business major as well, and quickly learned that I wasn’t going to be able to do both. So I ended up with a minor in music and a major in business. And so ever since leaving Florida State University, I graduated, I took a job with a marketing and PR firm for about a year and a half and realized it wasn’t for me. My father is an orthopedic surgeon by trade. And so I learned a lot from him just in my formidable years. And knowing how much I love the medical field, but didn’t necessarily want to spend the next 10 years in medical school, and then residency and fellowship, I decided to get into the medical sales world. Instead, I went straight into devices versus going into pharmaceutical sales first. So I was thrust into a male heavy world, my surgeons were male, my nurses and techs and such were males and females, but the reps were predominantly men. And as a 21 year old, 22 year old, that’s a pretty big shock to the system, when you’re not used to having that many men surround you and they’re dominant, and they’re good at what they do. So I’m not really sure if I answered all your questions. But you know, that’s kind of what spurred the book was just from the beginning to about midway through my career, some of the things that I learned that’s
Rick Farris 4:08
awesome. Elise was there, like a certain event or something in particular, just a culmination of just your experiences that that led to that book.
Anneliese Finn 4:17
Probably a combination. I mean, you know, every day, we face a lot of different obstacles as women. And I’m not saying that men don’t face the same. They say they face obstacles as well, but not necessarily the same obstacles, sexual harassment being one of them. And I’m not saying that that’s something that’s dominant in my field versus anything else. But I do think that the way women handle themselves the way that they portray themselves in business meetings in the OR, every day, there are certain things that they should be doing to make sure that they stay kind of above that fray and they don’t fall into the certain pitfalls that they can be labeled, and instead become strong. Are through those situations. So there were a couple of things that happened to me. One in particular, I was asked to move to a different division. Not because of my sales performance, but because there was another person that they had had in mind. And it really hurt, I ended up leaving the company. And from that, I just kind of wanted to get out there and encourage women to stay the course and to stay strong.
Rick Farris 5:28
Well, I’m sure there’s plenty of listeners out there who, you know, share some of the challenges that you’ve faced and would love to hear more. That being the case, would you mind giving us maybe a synopsis of your book? Sure.
Anneliese Finn 5:41
So you know, it touches on a lot of different things. Like I mentioned, it’s more of a guide book than a novel talks about the way you should dress the way you know certain things, certain things that you do, or perceived what to wear, what not to wear jewelry, things that may be too flashy, especially in the OR. And then I move into business meetings and how to handle yourself in a business meeting, how to without plagiarizing everything, but to lean in, right, that’s a big term now for all of us women, but I think men do it quite exceptionally well. Whereas women tend to shy away unless they are 1,000% sure that they know what they’re talking about. So I talked about, you know, believing in what you know, building your knowledge continuing to learn. And then using those aspects of what you’ve learned in the meetings or in your business dealings. Every day, I talk about dinners, business dinners, business dinners with colleagues, dinner dinners with customers, I talk about company functions, where you know, where you need to handle yourself self versus another way. And a lot of what I talk about is really based around men, and what they do differently that we as women should probably look to do a little bit more. So you know, for example, we don’t need to be walking around in a bikini at a company function at the pool, you know, it’s not the time, that’s time you do that on vacation, you don’t necessarily want to do that, at your company function. I talked about how to handle yourself with alcohol. I talked about how to handle yourself with a sexual advance that is not warranted by you. Whether that’s a customer or colleague, I discussed how to handle that in a very delicate way. And then at the very end, I also touched on being a mother because that’s my other job. And it’s something I’m very proud of. But it’s very hard to struggle. When you do struggle, and balance both a career and being a mother, same time and a wife, of course as well. There are a lot of expectations that are put on women. And when we’re career women, it’s even greater.
Rick Farris 7:54
Yeah, and Anneliese, it’s interesting. Just as somebody who manages different, a lot of different people. Traveling versus not traveling jobs are super interesting, right? So I’ve always noticed when you hire different types of sales reps, service reps client facing and you’re on the road, it’s almost as if, when you go to college, you get an education on business, right? But you don’t necessarily get an education on the social aspects of business. So like I’ve noticed, when I get a lot of newer people to the industry, one of the interview things that I’ve started to do, which actually I learned from a company I used to work from was just you take everyone to dinner, so get everyone to dinner and interview, we’d interview a bunch of people at one time, and we’d bring some senior staff members with us to help with the interview process. But it’s almost like, Okay, we’re gonna put drinks on the table. And really, the process is just to see what people do. Right? Because when people have too much, then some people get a little outlandish. Some people are more measured with how much they do or don’t drink. And they kind of keep it even keeled. It’s just interesting. It’s that whole process is, is candidly, just in general, not really educated on early on and the business acumen side of things. And I always found it very interesting to just kind of see how that was gonna go down within those interviews. And then, you know, when you start to ask questions, if they’re kind of open ended questions, and people can be creative with their responses, you know, the more somebody’s had the crazier and more outlandish, their responses become. And so it’s just interesting, like, some of what you’re saying, you know, even more scrutiny on the on the woman side, but in general, it’s an issue, you know, and even for those, I guess, you know, if as an example a male did an undesired behavior as an example, like in there was alcohol involved, you know, they need they’d be educated as well on how to behave responsibly. But candidly, we, you know, we wouldn’t hire that person. It’s just interesting that that whole area is is kind of wrought with, with a need for greater level of education earlier on in people’s careers.
Anneliese Finn 10:16
I think, yeah, that’s a that’s actually a really great point. I never thought of it that way. But you’re exactly right. You know, nowadays, we see these schools, sales schools. And I think it’s very important that the young kids are educated on how to handle themselves, outside the books, outside the school classroom and in the world, because in the real world, it’s a totally different, it’s totally different life. And that’s actually, that’s a good idea. I may I may pass that on.
Rick Farris 10:43
Yeah. You know, I’ve heard people say some of the craziest things, and I’ve seen them just lose themselves. And, you know, early on, I had a wise, a wise mentor, who was like, Hey, Rick, your your drink. I mean, this is how specific they were, at least they looked at me, and they’re like, your drink of choice, when at a business function is going to be vodka club soda. And I was like, Well, why is that and they said, because as the night goes on, you can have one drink, right? But the second drink is gonna be club soda with a lime in it, and nobody needs to know what you’re drinking, it looks like vodka club soda, but it’s not. And their point was, you know, socially, you’re sitting there having a drink, which is fine. But you stopped drinking, after the first drink, you know, and I’ve always, so now I’ve given up my juice, everybody’s gonna know. But like, I, it’s just one of those things I’ve always kind of stuck to I don’t really like to drink that much. Anyway. So it is funny. But these are little tactics that I was, I guess I was just, you know, fortunate that somebody shared with me, and I never really thought actually, you know, until you and I started to have this conversation about that being part of the acumen of hey, you need to learn this stuff. Early on in the business process.
Anneliese Finn 11:57
That’s funny, you know, and that’s kind of how I started writing the book is I started realizing, Wait, what if I talk about this? Or what if I talk about this, and nobody really talks about this stuff, but it’s what we do every day.
Rick Farris 12:07
I’m glad you did it.
Anneliese Finn 12:09
Because we’ve been doing it for so long. Yeah. But the young kids out there haven’t. And even those that have, you know, want to break in or are just starting their career. They don’t know all the the background that it takes. And it’s just honestly, it’s just knowledge because you lived it. Right? You did it, you made the mistake. So now you’re going to help them so they don’t make the mistakes.
Rick Farris 12:27
Yeah, well, and candidly, and at least I’ve seen it myself, right. Like I’ve seen unwarranted stuff. I’ve seen all kinds of stuff. And, you know, you hate to see it and you’d hate for somebody’s career to get damaged, or even their emotions to get damaged. So early on that it just keeps them from growing, and just becoming this awesome asset for a firm. And so I’m glad you I’m glad you broach the subject. And I think it’s awesome. You did it. You know, I had a question in here it was, it was just basically about the fact that you were in medical sales, you know, I was gonna state that the insurance industry is really no different, as far as the ratio of men to say, women, and I was gonna ask you to tell us a bit about your journey. But I feel like you’ve done that, you know, are starting to do that. Is there anything else you’d like to kind of tack on to that journey that maybe we haven’t discussed yet?
Anneliese Finn 13:19
Well I, think you mentioned it just a second ago about emotions and handling your emotions. For women, it’s a lot harder for us. Because we can’t we don’t compartmentalize like a lot of men can do, we kind of allow it all to come in. And that can be a positive thing, or it can be negative, right. So you can allow your emotions to get the best of you right off the bat. And you can jump the gun and say something or do something to your superiors. And that’s already shed a light that you may or may not have wanted that light to be shined. So one of the things that I talk about a lot is handling our emotions and really checking them at the door. For me, if I put it into my specific field, it’s because I’m entering n o r, and that patient’s life is on the table with me and a physician. And that’s it, it’s me and him or her. And if I can’t put everything and check it at the door and walk into that, or with my mind completely clear except for what we’re going to do in that case, if something goes wrong, I’m not going to be able to get us through the situation because that’s my job is to troubleshoot and make sure we get through this case. So handling emotions is a big thing, especially for women. Because like I said, one outburst, and unfortunately that can really make it look bad. And I’m definitely guilty of that. I’ve definitely lost my Michael a lot. And you know, and then the other thing that I think is really important is having that emotional intelligence that EI think that’s another real key aspect, especially in sales or when you’re dealing actually with anybody in life, if you’re able to empathize with those and others and see what they’re going through. And so then you’re able to kind of spin or sell your, your device or product or whatever on that and that person, specifically, I think you’re gonna be a lot more successful at what you’re doing versus just kind of, well, this isn’t the way that I would look at it, and being very closed off versus open and more emotionally intelligent. So those are two other things that I think are really important that I touch on. And that’s awesome.
Rick Farris 15:22
I’m glad to do that. You know, we said are one of the questions I was going to ask is, what are some habits to form for success? So, so I’m glad you kind of put that out there. So e is definitely on the list. And it’s a, it’s an element of ourselves, we need to cultivate and develop what else?
Anneliese Finn 15:37
Yeah, honestly, you know, I don’t I’m sure a lot of people now especially since being at home due to the COVID situation. But then I also drive a lot. So I listen to a ton of podcasts. I listen to books on tape. I listen to TED talks, I mean, I don’t watch it, but I’ll listen to it while it’s playing in the car. I think you just have to continually educate yourself, every time you get a chance, versus just kind of tune out. It’s like that late night where you’re just like, Oh, I’m going to flip through Netflix, well, instead, why don’t you pick up a book for 20 minutes and learn something, because I think that that is what is really gonna carry you to the next level. And that’s what’s going to take you higher than the people that you may or may not know you’re competing against, for that next level of whatever you’re trying to go into. Or maybe just the sales rep down the road that selling a different product, but your competitors, he or she might be doing something that you’re not. So for me, I think you’ve got to constantly want up your game every single day, every single time you have the, you know, five minutes, try to do something that makes you better as a person, as a salesperson as a medical professional, an insurance professional, whatever it is, constantly try and learn new things. Because I think when you stay stagnant, you end up failing at the end.
Rick Farris 16:51
So Anneliese you you mentioned books, and so I’m gonna kind of throw you out there because I’m not gonna make I’ll go first. But you know, I don’t know if there’s any great books that you’ve read recently, or in the past or anything that you really like, but I’m gonna tell everybody what mine is Annalisa if you there’s one you want to run, feel free. But it’s primal leadership. And it’s essentially by Daniel Goleman. Richard Boyatzis and Annie McKee, phenomenal book, it’s realizing the power of emotional intelligence. And I gotta be honest with you guys, I first heard about it from Harvard Business Review. So I picked it up. And you know, I was a management consultant for about five years. And we did a lot of reading. And I will tell you, this is probably one of the best books that I have ever read on emotional intelligence. And they have a second one, which is I’ve got them right here. I love these books, I keep them. But the second one is a follow up to it. And it’s called resonant leadership. And these two books, change your life. Unbelievable. If you haven’t read them read, okay.
Anneliese Finn 17:55
I may I may have you send me a screenshot of those when you’re when we’re done talking.
Rick Farris 17:59
Happy to happy to and to all the listeners out there. I mean, it’s not it will be well worth your time. You can get it on Audible. Like like Anneliese, I love that. You said that because you found what works for you. And it’s not like, I don’t I don’t know if that’s like a thing where people are like you they’re an audio person. I don’t? I don’t know. But I hope not. Because candidly, for those who spent a lot of time in cars or on planes. I mean, that is just one of the easiest ways to just constantly as Anneliese be learning. And man, if you’re not doing it, you’re missing out.
Anneliese Finn 18:31
Absolutely. And I think you know, everybody has a different style of the way that they want to learn or read or whatever. But I don’t know. I feel like yeah, for me, it’s listening. I love to pick up a book the feel of a book. That’s fantastic. But because I travel so much I’ve gotten used to the audible so I just ended up sitting there listening to it. I’m leavin listened to it on the plane. Yeah, I’m with you. But I think you know, I was just scrolling through some recent books, but I think probably the one I continue listening to like over and over again, which is crazy. But it is the art of war, which is Sun Tzu. Right? And that’s, yeah, got it sitting here on the show. Yeah, it’s a fantastic book. And it’s not about war, per se. But it’s about all these different tactics of how you can, you know, come at your combat either your enemies or the people that you’re competing against, or however you want to put those people into those categories, and really be smart and strategic with it. While you’re thinking ahead, and I think a lot of that just kind of delves back into the emotional intelligence, you know, when you when you strengthen that you become smarter and more strategic in the things that you do.
Rick Farris 19:34
Yeah, you know, it’s funny, so I just did a presentation for our team just had a growth Summit. We all got together and I just did a presentation on emotional intelligence, which I’m really glad I had the opportunity to do. But it’s it’s interesting when I talk to people that you know, it’s kind of all over the map where people see that and as it pertains to even you know, women in business, whomever in business, this concept of Have not just having you’ll hear people say all the time and only say this person has this leadership style. But the concept is more like a golf bag. It’s like you’ve got all these different clubs. And those are imagine the clubs are different types of leadership. And this is more for the listeners out there. I know Anneliese is all up in this stuff. But in essence, every one of those clubs is a different type of leadership, right. And we have to be adept. And not all of them, but as many as possible. And the emotional intelligence really comes in as far as knowing when to use which one with what person at what time, right. And if you can imagine the emotional concepts that that are at play there. I mean, that is really where somebody becomes a gifted leader. And so you can imagine just just kind of trying to connect some dots with what Anneliese has been talking about, even within her book, most likely, it’s really look within a given circumstance, you know that you have this repertoire of types of leadership. And when somebody comes and they try to impact you, and let’s just say it’s not a positive impact, you now are stuck within a in a position where you could go into fight or flight, you’re going to feel flooded. And you have to have self awareness, self management, because now you have to step back, say, Okay, what just happened? I’m feeling super flooded. And okay, so how am I going to manage this circumstance, without letting my emotions push me away from being able to use the thinking part of my brain? And actually, being aware of all of these different skill sets is what helps you step back and take control when all that bad stuff starts to happen? And then know, okay, different leadership styles? Should I What should I do within this space? And so just for those of you who are listening, if you’re kind of wondering, like, how does that play in and why my analysts have said that? That’s really I mean, that’s just an example of many I’m sure. But but that hopefully bring some more greater context around, kind of what Anneliese is saying,
Anneliese Finn 22:01
Yeah, that’s a really good point. I was just thinking about that. I think, you know, one of the things that may have been posed, as you know, how do you how would you manage different people? Or how do you lead different people? And I think that leads right to knowing their personalities, and what drives them. And unfortunately, not everybody is going to be like you, right? Because you know yourself really well, or fortunately, or unfortunately, but you know, yourself, so you know what’s going to push you you know, it’s not going to push you you know, it’s going to upset you but not everybody is like you in fact, probably they aren’t none of them are like you so you have to learn, you know, what are their hot buttons, what makes them tick, what isn’t going to make them go you know, driving really hard on somebody may not make that person go maybe laying back saying hey, you know, you have this personal time you go be you go do this with your family, or whatever you need to do, when we come back, let’s sit down, let’s, you know, measure this out, whatever, whoever they are, you’re managing them personally, versus just kind of like grouping them into a big group and saying, I’m gonna drive drive until you guys all performed for me. So that goes right along with what you were saying in terms of managing people based on their different personalities. And based on your AI and how you can see that identify that and then use it to help you push them forward.
Rick Farris 23:15
Well, you know, and at least I bet within your industry, too, though, that is a pace setting type of leadership, which is really just what are the numbers hit the numbers hit the numbers, and I feel like in med device sales, that’s probably a huge component, which puts you even more in kind of a challenging environment because people are just driving for results constantly. So there’s a lot of pressure they’re not that they’re not that doesn’t doesn’t exist in a lot of different industries. But like it take in some industries, there’s a two year sales cycle. Okay, well, it’s just not the same pressure when you have a weak sales cycle or a monthly sales cycle, which I think you would understand.
Anneliese Finn 23:50
Yeah, no, I agree, are a bit the aortic business so I’m currently in aortic stent grafts. I’ve been doing that now for about 10-11 years. So aortic stent grafts are devices that are put in percutaneously, through your femoral artery, mainly, and we go up and we treat aneurysms, dissections transection transactions, which are car accidents, that kind of thing. And they’re life threatening their life threatening disease states, I mean, dissections and transactions, you will die if we do not put what I knew in my, you know, a couple hours, you’ll be dead. So those are things that you know, are are pretty, it’s a big deal, I guess is what I’m getting at. And so because it’s such a big deal, interestingly enough, this specific medical genre that I’m in is very still very physician driven. It’s contract driven, but it’s still physician driven. And so because it’s physician driven, it’s a long sales cycle to get that loyalty to have a physician trust you, because they will send me a CTA, which is a CAT scan, basically, of your entire body and I will read it and I will Got it. And I will point out everything there is to know about what’s going on from the heart all the way down to the toes if the scan includes that. And then of course, I’ll specifically look at the aorta, I will size the stent grafts to the size of the aorta, and then I’ll bring the graphs, I’ll order them and bring the graphs and then I’ll walk the physician through the deployment of the graph. And then any troubleshooting if we need to. So it’s a pretty intense job. And it’s, you know, requires a high level of clinical expertise. But it also requires a lot of loyalty on your physicians part. And so as you can imagine, if a physician has been using XYZ company for 10 years, why would he all of a sudden want to switch to me, so it takes a lot of work on my part, to gain their trust or respect, and then hopefully, you know, work with them.
Rick Farris 25:48
That’s really cool. That’s really cool. So, you know, it’s actually like a super cool inside, look into what you guys are doing within that space, which I love. Clearly, you’re, you’re an intelligent individual, because it sounds super complex. I, you know, we’ve talked about some habits to form for success, like reading, being a Constant Learner, developing out your emotional intelligence. We’ve talked about even just some of the elements of your book, which incorporate how to conduct oneself is within the industry. It’s especially specific to women, and I’m sure there’s nuggets for men in there as well, especially just hearing the perspective of someone else. And being more aware of that perspective. What advice would you give to those trying to advance their paths? You know, in business in general, within the med device world, you choose? Anneliese?
Anneliese Finn 26:41
Yeah. So first, I would say, you know, don’t give up on your dreams never give up. If that’s what you want, it’s gonna drive you whether it takes you five days, five months or five years, it took me two years to break into the space. And that was an everyday thing of emailing, applying for different jobs, taking a lot of applications and interviews, and not getting any of the jobs and being told no, you’re not going to make it No, you don’t make the cut. No, you have no experience. All of those things, right. And finally, one time, I just got lucky. And you know what it is? It’s a time and opportunity, right? So I would say just continue driving. If it’s something you really love, you’ll find that job. Do all of your research prior to going into any job application, no matter what it is know about the company, the company motto, the products that they sell what they represent, what’s their history, are they a B Corp? Are they funded? You know? Are they pre IPO? I mean, all of these things? And then what’s the people? What are the CEO and the CEOs background? Where did they come from? What do they believe in? What schools did they go to? So you do a lot of research prior to even applying for the job. And that actually just goes across? Once you get the job and you start calling on your customers know your customer base? What do they stand for? What’s for me? It’s what medical school did you go to what what fellowship? Did she graduate from? What drives or does she have kids? Does he have kids? Do they have animals? Do they like to vacation? I mean, all of this stuff is just it’s this people knowing right? And so when you go to move to the next level of whatever it is that you’re trying to get, know everything you can about that so that you come in 1,000% prepared, and there’s not a question that you don’t have an answer to
Rick Farris 28:25
sound advice, Anneliese, thank you so much for coming on. And thank you to our listeners today for listening in. If you have any questions, please contact us or look for information on our homepage @www.fbmc.com. If you’d like to get in touch with Anneliese and or buy her book and you’re looking for more information, please reach out to us. And remember, you can find us and subscribe on any podcast app. Thanks and have a great day.
Thank you for listening to Risky Benefits. If you’re interested in learning more, please visit www.FBMC.com We hope you’ll join us next time on Risky Benefits.